Transcript [00:00] I'm your host, Dr. Tim Clinton. I'll be [00:01] speaking with Michael Ferris. Michael's [00:03] a lawyer, founder of the Homeschool [00:05] Legal Defense Association, also Patrick [00:08] Henry College, and he's general counsel [00:10] for NRB, the National Religious [00:12] Broadcasters Association. He's an expert [00:15] on religious freedom and parental [00:16] rights. Ferris also previously served as [00:19] president and CEO of Alliance Defending [00:22] Freedom, widely recognized for his [00:24] successful work on both the national [00:26] international stage. Mike, I want to [00:27] come to uh a real kind of um heartbeat [00:31] of yours and something I care a lot [00:33] about and that is our first amendment uh [00:36] rights, religious liberty. Uh I guess [00:38] I'd like just a simple definition uh [00:41] from you about why religious liberty is [00:44] so important and why we've got to fight. [00:46] It's our most fundamental right. Well, [00:49] the uh I wrote a book uh called the [00:52] history of religious liberty. And the [00:54] the point of it was to say that it [00:56] didn't come from the enlightenment. It [00:58] came from Bible believing Christians who [01:00] laid their lives on the line year after [01:03] year, decade after decade, century after [01:05] century, basically from the time of [01:07] William Tinddale to the adoption of the [01:08] Bill of Rights. And so the reason that [01:12] the Christians believe that is that [01:13] government has no jurisdiction over the [01:16] heart, soul, and mind of man. That's the [01:18] principle we have to understand. This is [01:20] outside their jurisdiction. That means [01:23] religious freedom is for everybody. Free [01:25] speech is for everybody. Not just people [01:27] we agree with. For everybody. Only a [01:30] Christian worldview has ever brought [01:31] that that into existence. But it's [01:34] because we believe in the jurisdiction [01:36] of God rather than the jurisdiction of [01:37] government. So our rights don't come [01:38] from government. Our rights come from [01:40] God. Absolutely. And it's it's it's [01:42] designed that way because it's [01:44] allegiance to God. So why is it [01:47] important to have religious liberty? [01:48] Because allegiance to God is the most [01:50] important thing in any of our lives. And [01:53] it also is the catalyst for all of our [01:55] freedoms. We would have no provision of [01:57] the Bill of Rights but for those central [01:59] core things that basically historically [02:02] arose out of the battle to get the Bible [02:04] in the hands of the common people. the [02:06] the freedom of speech, the free exercise [02:08] of religion, the uh freedom of assembly, [02:11] freedom of petition of the government, [02:12] all freedom of association, all came [02:15] from the the battle to get the Bible in [02:17] the hands of the common people from the [02:19] great awakening from the you know, [02:21] Baptist pastors in Virginia in 1770 were [02:23] being arrested by the Anglican officials [02:26] uh in 1770s. Uh and so uh it's been an [02:31] important centerpiece of all of our [02:32] freedom. So why is it important? You [02:35] can't have any freedom if you don't have [02:36] freedom of religion. You don't have [02:38] freedom of speech. Over the last few [02:40] years, there have been some real [02:42] challenges in this area in American [02:44] culture. From shutting down our churches [02:46] during the pandemic to a coach praying [02:50] on a high school football field, Coach [02:52] Kennedy, funding for Christian schools, [02:55] uh where other schools were getting [02:57] funded, but if you're a school that has [02:59] faith at the heart of it, you're not [03:01] going to get funded from the government, [03:02] too. [03:04] uh life issues, jobs, etc. Those things [03:08] all matter and they've been uh kind of [03:11] front and center. Uh I appreciate uh the [03:14] president, President Trump [03:17] um developing a religious liberty [03:19] commission, and he also put together a [03:21] task force, an anti- uh Christian bias [03:24] task force because I think people around [03:27] him at least have seen how significant [03:29] this is and and and it's important to [03:31] him. He also talks a lot about the [03:33] Johnson amendment. That's a pretty big [03:35] swipe here, but I'm going to throw that [03:37] softball your way, Mike, and say Tim. [03:39] Yeah. Well, the I'm going to start with [03:41] the Johnson amendment because um NRB uh [03:44] and I'm the lead council on this has [03:46] filed a constitutional challenge to the [03:48] Johnson amendment in federal district [03:49] court in Tyler, Texas. We're in the [03:51] midst of litigation against the IRS [03:53] right now. Right now. And and so our [03:56] argument is that uh there's there's a [04:00] facial argument means the law as written [04:02] and there's an as applied argument means [04:04] how the IRS is enforcing it. And as [04:07] written the basic rule is every other [04:09] kind of business entity nonprofit [04:12] forprofit can say whatever they want to [04:13] say about candidates. They can't deduct [04:15] it from their taxes, but they don't lose [04:17] all their tax deductions if they do. [04:19] They, you know, if they spend 95% of [04:21] their money on other things, and they [04:24] spend 5% on saying something about [04:25] candidates, 95% of their donors to uh [04:29] trade association, for example, would be [04:32] deductible as a business expense. But [04:34] for C3s, for nonprofits, churches in [04:37] particular, you can spend $10 million [04:40] feeding the poor and [04:42] $100 on saying something about a [04:44] candidate, and you lose the [04:46] deductibility for all $10 million [04:49] because you said something about a [04:51] candidate. And so that's a complete [04:54] punishment. It's not saying, you know, [04:56] we don't want to subsidize your [04:57] political speech. Fine. Don't subsidize [04:58] it. Make them use clean money, if you [05:00] will, money they don't get from their [05:01] regular nonprofit sources. fine. But to [05:04] say you lose your exemption entirely, [05:07] that's the as written argument. I I [05:09] believe we're going to win. The as [05:10] applied argument, and here's how the law [05:12] really works, and we've got dozens and [05:14] dozens of examples with video in our in [05:16] our complaint that says the real rule is [05:19] enforced by the IRS. It is illegal for [05:22] nonprofit organizations to support [05:23] Republican candidates. That's the real [05:26] rule. And if you you support a Democrat, [05:28] that's fine. We've got video of Joe [05:30] Biden in a church where the pastor is [05:32] leading the church. Go Joseph. Go [05:35] Joseph. And the Biden gets up there and [05:38] basically makes a campaign speech and [05:40] the pastor endorses him. We actually [05:42] have two videos of that. Two different [05:43] churches. We have Obama. We have Hillary [05:45] Clinton. We've got nonprofit newspapers [05:48] saying vile things about President [05:50] Trump. Nonprofit newspapers. The [05:52] Philadelphia Inquirer is a nonprofit [05:54] newspaper. They endorse Democrats every [05:56] year. So that's okay. But if they [05:58] endorse Republicans, that'd be a [06:00] different story. My own church, which is [06:02] Cornerstone Chapel in Leburg, Virginia, [06:04] was [06:06] uh fined by the IRS because our pastor [06:09] in the 2020 election said, "Here's what [06:13] the the Bible says about these five or [06:16] six issues. Here's what the Democrat [06:18] platform says about these five or six [06:19] issues. Here's what the Republican [06:21] platform says about these five or six [06:22] issues." and he said, "I don't see how [06:24] anybody can any Christian can vote for a [06:26] Democrat in light of if you compare the [06:29] Bible to these issues." Didn't say [06:30] anything about any candidate [06:32] specifically. Um, but he but he compared [06:35] the parties and the IRS fined our church [06:38] for doing that. And so we we that's part [06:41] of our evidence in this litigation that [06:42] we're doing. And so so we uh I feel very [06:46] good about our chances in this. We're in [06:48] federal district court in Tyler, Texas. [06:50] Then we'll uh whatever happens there [06:52] will go to the fifth circuit court of [06:54] appeals. And of course we've been [06:55] litigating this against the Biden [06:57] justice department up until very [06:59] recently and uh we are going to get a [07:03] new motion filed by the um by the new [07:06] justice department within 60 days and [07:08] we'll see if there changes. Um, we [07:11] would, you know, there there's a [07:12] possibility that case could get settled [07:14] between the parties, but I want a court [07:16] decree that says the Johnson Amendment [07:17] is unconstitutional. So, nonprofits can [07:20] apply the word of God to every area of [07:22] life and say, "Here's what the Bible [07:24] says. Here's what this candidate says." [07:26] And make comparisons. That's all. We [07:27] don't need to endorse candidates. We [07:28] just need to make the comparisons. [07:31] Mike, I want to ask you about um [07:33] executive orders for a moment. The [07:35] president's making these moves. We [07:37] mentioned the Religious Liberty [07:38] Commission. They are only as good if you [07:41] will as the president in the term. [07:44] Right. Legislation is critical to put [07:46] these things into law. Right. Right. [07:49] Speak to us about um your concern over [07:53] the EOS and how or what you see [07:56] happening or maybe not happening uh in a [07:59] direction where we could codify uh some [08:01] of this into law. [08:03] Well, I'm a pretty strong stickler for [08:06] the rule that presidents aren't supposed [08:09] to make law, that Congress is supposed [08:12] to make [08:13] law. But here's here's the [08:16] deal. The most executive orders that I [08:20] object to or regulations that I object [08:24] to, administrative regulations by the [08:26] EPA or any other agency, they're they're [08:28] the same thing from a constitutional [08:29] perspective. They're laws made by people [08:33] in the administrative branch rather than [08:35] laws made by Congress. If they affect [08:37] private people and private property, I'm [08:40] I don't like using administrative law [08:42] for that purposes. If it's the internal [08:44] control of the government, well, there's [08:46] a lot more leeway then. The president [08:48] has great power for the internal control [08:51] of the government. So, shutting down [08:52] this agency, shutting down that agency, [08:55] there's, you know, it's not that he can [08:57] do anything that he wants, but he can. [08:59] his range of lawful ability is much much [09:02] greater. So, and as as far as I [09:05] understand, the vast majority of [09:06] President Trump's orders have been about [09:08] the internal operation of government. [09:10] And so, they to me come from a strong [09:12] place constitutionally. But if we want [09:15] permanent changes that last, getting [09:17] things into uh statutory law is much [09:20] better than having them as executive [09:23] orders. So the as much as we can do that [09:27] um that's that's the best alternative in [09:29] many cases. In some cases it would be [09:32] good to put things in the constitution [09:33] like for example I think we should put [09:35] in the constitution that there are only [09:37] nine justices on the Supreme Court so [09:39] that we can can't do court packing [09:40] because that court packing thing was big [09:42] issue. Uh if we if we don't do that the [09:45] next time the Democrats can control of [09:47] all three branches stack the court. [09:48] They're going to stack the court and the [09:49] gun rights of the Americans will be the [09:51] first thing to go. They're gone. They're [09:52] gone. We're fighting time here. Micah, I [09:56] I can talk to you all day. I want to [09:58] talk to you about school choice and [10:00] parental rights. Before we go, you've [10:02] been a strong advocate in this lane [10:05] forever. And uh it's really important [10:07] that people hear where we're at, and uh [10:11] how they should be thinking, what they [10:14] should be praying, and how they should [10:15] engage here. [10:17] The first case I argued in the Supreme [10:19] Court in the 1980s was a form of a [10:22] school choice case. Uh it was uh whether [10:26] a man who was going blind could use his [10:28] vocational rehabilitation funds to go to [10:30] Bible college and the state of [10:32] Washington said no that violated the [10:34] establishment clause. I won that case [10:37] nine to nothing in the US Supreme Court. [10:38] Wow. So the so I've been working on this [10:41] issue a long time. I want to to [10:44] eradicate the monopoly of the public [10:45] schools over the education of kids in [10:47] this country. But I want to do it in a [10:49] way that preserves the freedom of those [10:51] schools so that you know people say with [10:53] the shackles come the shackles. And [10:55] that's possibly true. It depends to me [10:57] on how you write it and and if it's uh [11:00] in the line of people. I keep more of my [11:02] own money uh in form of a tax deduction [11:06] or something like that from my private [11:07] school. I I favor that methodology more [11:10] than I favor direct vouchers because I [11:12] I' I would like to preserve freedom. But [11:14] in some form or another, we've got to [11:16] destroy the monopoly of the public [11:18] schools. And um you know, I've got [11:20] preferences of that, but but the the [11:22] strong principle is that parents need to [11:25] be realistically free to choose wherever [11:26] their kids are going to be educated. [11:28] Michael, it's um a real honor uh to [11:31] share the microphone with you. going to [11:33] pray that God continues to lead and [11:35] direct you and pray a hedge around you [11:37] and your family. Before you go, if [11:39] people want to learn more about you, how [11:41] they maybe can support, engage, pray for [11:44] you, where can they go? Well, uh, NRB's [11:47] website at nrb.org will contain things [11:50] about the litigation that I'm doing [11:51] right now. But, uh, the only thing I do [11:53] on social media is is Facebook, and [11:55] that's Michael Ferris on Facebook. F A [11:57] Rs. I have about 40,000 people that [11:59] follow me, and I'd love to have a few [12:01] more. I talk about funny stuff, but [12:03] mostly legal. Michael, what an honor to [12:06] have you. Thank you again for joining us [12:07] here on WAVA Lifechanging Radio. Thank [12:10] you.
